Matt Williams knows a thing or two about the rivalry between the All-Blacks and the Wallabies but when it comes to predicting Saturday's Rugby World Cup final, the Australian had a go on Off The Ball.
The ex-Leinster and Scotland head coach joined Adrian to look ahead to the clash and also to give us an insight into a massive regional rivalry and the place of rugby in both nations.
"New Zealand should win this World Cup, but Australia, they're the team that New Zealand don't want to play," he concluded, having broken down some of the areas that could swing the contest in either direction.
Williams also chatted about the unique Australian attitude towards the mythology built around the All-Blacks.
Matt Williams and Off The Ball's Adrian Barry
"New Zealand are the greatest rugby team in the world and have been since the early 1900s but we've beaten them 50 times. Now, we've played 150 times, so we've lost 100 times. But Australia beats New Zealand more than anyone else because we play them more than anyone else and because we don't put them up on a pedestal like the rest of the world does," he said.
There has also been a growing consensus that the tournament at large this year has been the best so far.
"I'm very reluctant to get all gushy about it but I've got to say, on a number of fronts, you've probably got to say that it has been," said Williams on that score, praising the host nation's staging of this year's edition, before touching on the stylistic rugby evolution witnessed at this World Cup.
"It's brought the return of the small player. Aaron Smith for me has been the player of the tournament with David Pocock and you see this tiny little guy in Aaron Smith carve a game apart which is really encouraging for all the rugby guys. You don't have to be 6 foot 10 and you don't have to be 16 stone and spend your life in a gym. It's about skill and all that returning to the game that was always there - but we lost it for a few years - makes it a wonderful experience to watch and it must be so much fun to play."
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